[DarkLord]

In order to activate Ritual Buster does the last thing that has to happen is the ritual monster being ritual summoned?


2 If I control Koa'ki meiru beetle and my opponent summons Judgement Dragon in attack(obviously) is it true they miss timing to use its effect to destroy all cards on the field?

[Anonymoose]

1) Well, you can't activate it while a chain is being resolved, if that's what you mean. So yeah, the ritual summon has to be the last event in the chain to resolve for you to be able to use the card "ritual buster". Are there any ritual trap cards (trap cards that somehow ritual summon a monster)?

2) Technically, the opposing player is unable to use the priority they would normally have to activate Judgment Dragon's effect in the summon response chain because the effect of Koa'ki Meiru Beetle is already placed as chain link one--it automatically triggers before the player with Judgment Dragon can activate any effects in response to the successful summon.

So, no, Your opponent cannot activate Judgment Dragon's effect until the chain involving Koa'ki Meiru Beetle's effect (the summon response chain) resolves. But, seeing as Judgment dragon's effect can be activated during either main phase, the opponent doesn't actually "miss the timing" to activate the effect--ignition effects don't have a specific "timing" window besides having to be chain link 1 and activating during main phases.

But because of the existence of a relevant trigger effect, Judgment Dragon's ignition effect CANNOT be activated in the summon response chain.

But I'm sure Val will have a better explanation either before or after I post this.

EDIT: Phrased that wrong: What are spell speed 1 monster effects that aren't Gladiator beast effects or MAIN PHASE ignition effects?

This post has been edited by Anonymoose: 06 November 2009 - 10:15 PM

[Nomad]

1) Much like Torrential Tribute & Bottomless Trap Hole, Ritual Buster needs to be activated as part of the chain responding to the summon, but it shouldn't need to be the 1st link. It'll usually be the 1st link anyway, since you won't wanna risk your opponent passing after you do, thus closing your opportunity to activate it, but it shouldn't "need" to be.

2) Since Judgment Dragon has an ignition effect, it can't "miss the timing". However, like any other ignition effect, it is prone to not having the proper timing to activate as the 1st link in the summon response chain if any appropriate trigger effects are present at this time.

While I don't believe Konami has issued any rulings on Koa'ki Meiru Beetle, it makes the most sense to me for its position switching effect is a trigger effect due to the way it reads. As such, it would activate as the 1st link of the chain responding to Judgment Dragon's special summon, thus eliminating the Turn Player's ability to activate its ignition effect until a new chain begins. This becomes important when we recognize that spell speed 2 or higher effects such as Bottomless Trap Hole & Book of Moon can be chained to Koa'Ki Meiru Beetle's effect, but that spell speed 1 ignition effects like that of Judgment Dragon's cannot.

Link 1 - Koa'ki Meiru Beetle.
Link 2 - Bottomless Trap Hole.

When this chain resolves, Judgment Dragon will be destroyed & removed from play, and then Koa'ki Meiru Beetle's chain link will resolve without effect. Unfortunately for the Lightsworn player, their Judgment Dragon was taken off the field before an opportunity came about to activate its "destroy everything" effect, because a "trigger effect" stole the 1st link. If you'd like a more common analogy for this, just think of the King Tiger Wanghu vs Exiled Force examples, where Exiled Force falls victim.

Edit - One minute!

This post has been edited by Val: 06 November 2009 - 10:04 PM

[Anonymoose]

Well, that one minute difference is me purposely shortening my response so I can make it before your long thorough response.... plus, I misanswered #1. Also, I had a question~

[DarkLord]

thanks for clearing that up(the JD thing)In other words if my opponent ritual summons a monster,I play bottomless/torrential/phoenix wing wind blast would that close the opportunity for them to use ritual buster then?

[Anonymoose]

No, you can still activate ritual buster, assuming it's in the same summon response chain. It'll just be that the chain , and any effects activated in the chain involving Ritual Buster resolve normally--it's similar to the way Cold Wave works. I'm assuming also that "activating" and "using" spell and trap cards do not include spell and trap cards that are resolving or are about to resolve.

Can anyone clarify?

[Nomad]

When I Ritual Summon my Relinquished, every effect activated in the this chain is considered to be responding to the summon, because that's what the chain itself is doing. (Also, I don't believe we have any Trap Cards that perform Ritual Summons, at least not yet. We have several Ritual Spell Cards that perform Ritual Summons, and 1 unique Normal Spell Card called Ritual Forgone that can special summon a Ritual Monster from the player's hand, but thats not considered to be a proper summon.)

Link 1 - Relinquished's ignition effect targeting Dark Rabbit.
Link 2 - Torrential Tribute.
Link 3 - Ritual Buster.

When this chain resolves, Ritual Buster's effect will resolve first, but it should not affect Torrential Tribute since its already been activated. Torrential Tribute will destroy every monster on the field, and then Relinquished's chain link will resolve without effect since the targeted Dark Rabbit is no longer on the field.

Edit - As far as the spell speed monster question, I'll go through both speeds because I'm not sure what you're specifically asking about.

Spell Speed 1
Ignition Effect
Trigger Effect

Spell Speed 2
Quick Effect (used to be called Multi-Trigger)

This post has been edited by Val: 06 November 2009 - 11:08 PM

[Anonymoose]

Well, I know how certain effects that can be activated during the main phase are spell speed one (Plaguespreader Zombie's and Exiled Force's effects, for example).

Originally, I was under the impression that spell speed 1 effects were activated only during either main phase. But Gladiator beast tagging effects are ignition effects, and are therefore spell speed 1.

I also believed, because Ignition effects were spell speed 1, that there would only be one link in a chain that would be spell speed 1, but I vaguely recall that certain spell speed 1 effects can form a chain.

I guess a better question would be, in two parts:

1) Which monster effects would be classified as spell speed 1? (Answered, unless you have some sort of exceptions or additional ones to include)
2) What exactly IS an ignition effect? (The rulebook defines it as certain effects activated during the main phase, but such is not always the case. Is there a better definition out there?)

[Nomad]

To be honest, Gladiator Beast effects are going to be in their own boat most if the time, regardless of whether we refer to them as pseudo-ignition effects with unique timing, or trigger effects that don't trigger to anything or form chains with each other, thus still having unique timing & rules in the same right. Since I can't quite figure out where the 1st term came from (other than unofficial terminology used on the UDE boards), it could easily be the latter.

1) Ignition & Trigger.

2) Unless specified otherwise, Ignition Effects are performed by the Turn Player during their Main Phase, when the source monster is face-up on the field in their control. The key phrase here is unless specified otherwise, because certain cards like Gale the Whirlwind have a "once per turn" restriction, while others like Archfiend General deviate to be activated in the hand instead. They are always spell speed 1, and they follow all of the default rules unless the card tells you deviate, and thats the only part that you deviate with.

Either way, being awake for about 24 hours straight isn't helping matters, so hopefully NewEdge, Fox-Fire, or somebody well rested will surface to expand on this if need be.

[DarkLord]

thanks for that.Another question popped in my head.Let's say I have gateway of the six on the field and I play Double Edge Sword Technique,would I get 4 counters or just 2?

And about the summoning of Koa'ki Meiru Maximus,say I have 2 in hand and 1 Iron Core I'd be able to only summon 1 Maximus or 2?

[Anonymoose]

2) No, removing the Iron Core of Koa'ki Meiru is a cost to summon Koa'ki Meiru Maximus. You cannot double up on costs. Think of it like discarding Treeborn Frog when you activate lightning vortex, then, right after, discard treeborn frog when you activate the effect of Snipe Hunter.

For #1) I'd say that you would get only 2 counters.

Effects that count the "lump sum" of the monsters involved, rather than just the number of times the event occurred, normally use the phrase "each time a monster(s)" rather than "each time a monster."

When the card says "each time a/an X monster is Y" it counts only the number of times the monster is Y, not the number of monsters that are Y (that, or Soul Absorbtion is really tripping me up).

Though, if I may cross-reference Gateway of the Six to an old, banned card:

Quote

Card of Safe Return:
When a monster is Special Summoned to the field from your Graveyard, you can draw 1 card from your Deck.

[Re: Valkyrion the Magna Warrior] If you have "Card of Safe Return" active on the field when you Tribute "Valkyrion the Magna Warrior" to Special Summon the Magnet Warriors, you draw only 1 card.

So, I'm going to say you only place two Bushido Counters on Gateway of the Six when two Six Samurai monsters are summoned simultaneuosly.

This post has been edited by Anonymoose: 07 November 2009 - 04:46 PM

[Nomad]

Soul Absorption needs an erratta, because it should say something along the lines of "each card".

However as you say, it makes the most sense for Double-Edged Sword Technique to count as one summon (since there's one summon response window), regardless of how many monsters are being summoned at that time from that effect.

[Anonymoose]

So is Soul Absorption the only one of such cards that considers the "lump sum" (each card contributing to the lifepoint gain) rather than the number of times the event occurs (Such as simultaneous summoning with relation to Card of Safe Return)?

[Nomad]

There might be others, but yes. Soul Absorption counts the number of cards removed, instead of the number of times the "drawing event" occurs like its IOC text suggests.

Edit - Actually, it looks like its text has already been corrected for DB2 to say "Each time a card(s) is removed from play, increase your Life Points by 500 points for each card removed from play.", so we have one less card to apple about.

This post has been edited by Val: 08 November 2009 - 03:24 AM