[Mad Hatter]

This is not really a ruling, but a question regarding the ruling on Archlord Kristya. Konami judges have ruled that if Kristya were removed from play instead of sent to the Graveyard while on the field, it would still be sent to the top of your deck. Is there a basis for this ruling because in my mind I can't see why Kristya wouldn't otherwise be RFG'd (other than by sole judge ruling). Also, would this ruling also be the case for cards like Sword of the Deep Seated and Black Ptera?

This post has been edited by Val: 27 January 2010 - 01:27 AM
Reason for edit: Fixed the card & topic name

[Anonymoose]

Claim:

Quote

Archlord Kristya:

If you have exactly 4 Fairy-Type monsters in your Graveyard, you can Special Summon this card from your hand. When you do, add 1 Fairy-Type monster from your Graveyard to your hand. Neither player can Special Summon monsters. If this face-up card would be sent from the field to the Graveyard, it returns to the top of the owner's Deck, instead.

If Archlord Kristya is removed from play, it will still be placed at the top of the deck.

Proof:

Suppose we have a crystal beast:

Quote

When a face-up "Crystal Beast" monster you control is selected as an attack target, you can change the target to this card. If this card is destroyed while it is in a Monster Card Zone, you can place it face-up in your Spell & Trap Card Zone as a Continuous Spell Card, instead of sending it to the Graveyard.

The crystal beasts have the corresponding ruling:

Quote

If "Macro Cosmos" or "Banisher of the Light" is active on the field when a "Crystal Beast" monster is destroyed, you can use its effect and still place it in your Spell & Trap Card Zone.

So, we shall suppose that Konami means that Archlord Krystia "would be" sent from the field to the graveyard (assuming we're referring to Macro Cosmos or Dimensional fissure being the source of RFG play) and would thus be able to use its effect--it need not reach the graveyard.

Though this is a flimsy proof.

This does not work with Sword of the Deep Seated or Black Ptera, because the card must reach the graveyard (there is no "would be" in the text)--both the return effects of Black Ptera and Sword of the Deep Seated activate and resolve in the graveyard, therefore, if the cards are not sent there, they won't even activate.

[Nomad]

I don't think that logic is flimsy at all, since Sword of Deep Seated & Black Ptera have trigger effects that activate once the card reaches the graveyard, where Archlord Kristya & Crystal Beasts have continous effects. Its been my understanding that they are/can be applied when the effect or game mechanic causing it to leave the field "would" send it to the graveyard while face-up.

I suppose Grave Protector will still thwart my definition, but that card's involvement hasn't exactly been consistent over the years anyway.

[Anonymoose]

It's flimsy because I assume that a monster that "would be sent to the graveyard" works the same way as a monster being "destroyed." Thing is, I would ordinarily assume that the game state would "know" that Archlord Kristya would not be sent to the graveyard if Dimensional Fissure or Macro Cosmos was active on the field.

The proof was flimsy because of the assumption that being "destroyed" and "would be sent to the graveyard" meant the same thing, or were similar enough to have the same ruling precedent.

[Nomad]

Along with not having a trigger effect at all, the key word here is "would", rather than "if" or "when". Due to that small but important detail, it makes sense that Archlord Kristya's continous effect is applied before he leaves the field much like that of the Crystal Beasts (which is why Skill Drain negates it), instead of "activating" off the field whenever & wherever the card ends up going, much like how Grandmaster of the Six Samurai, Slate Warrior (2nd effect) & Apprentice Magician work.

I get what you're saying about the Macro Cosmos & Dimensional Fissure involvement being strange, but sometimes we've gotta do our best to justify things, regardless of whether or not we fully agree with it or not.

[WolfangSD]

wait wait wait

That ruling may exist for the Crystal Beasts, but if a card effect destroys AND removes (i.e.: Bottomless Trap Hole) then it takes the option away and the monster cannot be placed in the Spell/Trap Zone. It's outlined in the OCG's FAQ for Force of the Breaker: http://dmcomet.net/fotb_faq.txt

[Anonymoose]

Then:

Quote

If "Macro Cosmos" or "Banisher of the Light" is active on the field when a "Crystal Beast" monster is destroyed, you can use its effect and still place it in your Spell & Trap Card Zone.

How is that justified? Did Netrep lie to me?

[Nomad]

The way I've understood it, those rulings differ because Macro Cosmos & friends will redirect the outcome of other effects or game mechanics that would otherwise send cards to the Graveyard by default, but without technically changing what the effects or game mechanics intent to do when moving the cards on their own.

On the other hand, Bottomless Trap Hole aims to destroy & remove the monster/s from play with its own effect, without the intended destination ever being the Graveyard.

[WolfangSD]

yeah, Macro and Banisher don't say "destroy and remove", they said "IF it would be sent to the grave, remove instead"...subtly different but different nonetheless. The text on cards like BTH take away the option for the CBs to go to the S/T zone since part of their effect is to remove them from the field. Macro/Banisher's effect doesn't directly remove anything, it just redirects cards which would normally go to the grave.