19 replies to this topic

[Nomad]

Quote

1 - Start of the Damage Step, where cards like Mystic Swordsman LV2, Sasuke Samurai #4, Neo-Spacian Grand Mole, & AOJ Catastor activate their effects.

2 - Flipping the Face-Down monster Face-Up. This is where monsters with "Flip" or "flipped face up" effects are first understood to have such effects, but are not activated at this time, and when the continuous effects of monsters such as that of Nightmare Penguin's stat increase & Jinzo's negation will begin to apply.

3 - Before Damage Calculation, where cards like Shrink, Rush Recklessly, Forbidden Chalice, Horn of the Phantom Beast and Mirror Wall have their last chance to activate(be flipped face-up). This is also the time where cards like Reflect Bounder (effect damage), Drillroid, Ehren Lightsworn Monk, Dreamsprite, Ancient Lamp & Blast Sphere's equipping effect will activate.

4 - During Damage Calculation, where cards/effects like Kuriboh, Injection Fairy Lilly & Prideful Roar are instructed to activate because they specify so. Honest & Blackwing Kalut can be used here, as well as during the previous windows. (New!) After damage has been calculated, the monster will be considered to be destroyed here, which means that even though it'll still be face-up on the field, continous effects will no longer be applied, and effects like that of Stardust Dragon that activate on the field without being triggered cannot be activated.

5 - Battle Damage is Inflicted/After Damage Calculation, where effects like Don Zaloog, Airknight Parshath, Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer, Gorz and Red Dragon Archfiend's defense position destruction will activate.

6 - Activating the Flip Effect of the Flipped Monster and a few Guest Stars, where cards like Snowman Eater, D.D. Warrior Lady, D.D. Assailant, Sazank, and Wall Of Illusion activate their effects.

7 - End of the Damage Step - Monster(s) Destroyed by Battle are Sent to the Graveyard, where effects such as that of Shura, Goyo Guardian, Giant Rat, Apprentice Magician, Newdoria and cards that specify "at the end of the damage step" like Ryu Kokki & Legendary Jujitsu Master will activate. I'd also like to add that while most normal trap cards cannot be activated during the damage steps, there are a few rare exceptions. These include Michizure, Chthonian Blast, Broken Blocker, Liberty At Last! & Alien Brain.

Soul Rope however, is NOT among these exceptions.

I had originally posted this in the full article thread that can still be found here, but figured a simplified breakdown would be a lot more practical.



Now, when it comes to what sort of effects can be activated during the Damage Step itself by default, lets look at the chart below that I've added a couple of clarifications to along our travels.

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- Counter-Trap cards.
- Spell speed 2 stat modifiers (which are only valid candidates up to and including the "Before Damage Calculation" window)
- Monster effects that activate with the intent of negating the activation of a card or effect.
- Cards & effects with special allowance written in their text or rulings.
- Appropriate trigger effects that can't activate in the hand, which often fall under the above category or don't need to specify otherwise

[Sheik_the_Geek]

Thats really helpful Val, thanks )

[Yugioh Genius.]

So what was the point behind changing the battle steps? How exactly does it help the game?

Edited by Yugioh Genius., 04 July 2009 - 06:38 PM.

[Nomad]

So what was the point behind changing the battle steps? How exactly does it help the game?

The "changes" themselves weren't too drastic because we just added an extra sub-step that we should've had the whole time anyway. Along with repairing that, the point was to make when and where effects activate more clear to everyone, and I can easily say that Curtis' article acomplished that... At least for me. The point was to clarify misconceptions & limit the amount of cards that could have the final say in what happens to monsters.

Edit - Apparently, this "new damage step article" was edited on the UDE site before Sheik & I got to it... Which explains why I kept thinking I messed up on Blast Sphere & Ancient Lamp's sub-step placement. The correct chart can be found here, and those two cards activate during the 3rd sub-step(just like Drillroid), not the 2nd sub-step like the early article mistakenly suggests. I apologize for any confusion this might have caused.

Edited by Val, 05 July 2009 - 08:34 PM.

[Sheik_the_Geek]

The "changes" themselves weren't too drastic because we just added an extra sub-step that we should've had the whole time anyway. Along with repairing that, the point was to make when and where effects activate more clear to everyone, and I can easily say that Curtis' article acomplished that... At least for me. The point was to clarify misconceptions & limit the amount of cards that could have the final say in what happens to monsters.

Edit - Apparently, this "new damage step article" was edited on the UDE site before Sheik & I got to it... Which explains why I kept thinking I messed up on Blast Sphere & Ancient Lamp's sub-step placement. The correct chart can be found here, and those two cards activate during the 3rd sub-step(just like Drillroid), not the 2nd sub-step like the early article mistakenly suggests. I apologize for any confusion this might have caused.

I will make the edits that are required to the 1st post and also confirm that Val is correct on this and the link he provided.

[spellcasterbrent]

is true that they got rid of the damage sub-steps some guy at locals was telling me that.

[Tenken]

spellcasterbrent, on 18 January 2010 - 12:37 PM, said:

is true that they got rid of the damage sub-steps some guy at locals was telling me that.

Some people will just argue that you shouldn't use the term "sub-step."

[Nomad]

Well, the damage step or its parts never went away.

Konami just doesn't want us using the term "sub-step" to define the chronological windows, or refer to the said windows by number instead saying "before damage calculation" etc.

[spellcasterbrent]

Does this mean that Shrink can be used during damage calculations or am I getting the wrong idea.

[Nomad]

Unlike the way it used to be, cards like Shrink, Rush Recklessly, & Forbidden Chalice (that modify stats) can only be activated up to including "Before Damage Calculation".

Its cards like Injection Faiy Lilly, Honest, & Prideful Roar that can or have to be used "During Damage Calculation" because their text or rulings specifically stays they can or have to be.

[LuckyNightmare]

Ok so according to this If i attack a facedown monster with LS ehren I get to c the monster before it is returned to the opponents deck right?

O and 1 question i've always been kinda wondering my DD warrior lady attacks BEWD I honest if he chains an honest and after everything resolves his bewd will +1500 atk and my DD warrior lady will + 3000 attack so in the end both monsters will end up in the grave am i correct?

[Nomad]

1) That's correct. The monster is flipped during the 2nd window, and that's when you see it first, and that's when a flip effect (if any) is triggered but not activated. Then when you move into the "before damage calculation" window, Ehren's effect activates. After that, Damage Calculation won't be applied, there won't be any battle damage to inflict, and then the flip effect (if any) will activate by starting a new chain.

2) As the turn player, you have priority to activate your Honest first, during any of the first 4 damage step windows. You'll usually wait until Damage Calculation to do this, so lets build the chain.

Link 1 - your Honest
Link 2 - their Honest

When this chain reasolves, Blue-Eyes will gain 1500 ATK, becoming 4500. Then when your Honest resolves, it'll add the 4500 ATK onto your 1500, making it 6000. Your opponent should not have chained their Honest to yours, as their boost only gets eaten by yours.

In the end, your monster will have 1500 more ATK than your opponent's, and you will win the battle. As in, you won't need to activate her removal effect.

[LuckyNightmare]

nice

[LuckyNightmare]

They changed this again??? Why am I hearing they rechanged it to only 3 steps now??? anyone mind to clarify this?

[Nomad]

Nothing's changed since January of last year when we came across the "before damage calculation" vs "during damage calculation" changes, and if you scroll up the page to post #41 (might be on a previous page, depending on your forum settings), you'll see that I've written a condensed version of the chart that won't take 5 hours to go through.

When it comes to what you heard about going to "only 3 steps", its likely got more to do with the fact that since vocally going through all 7 windows for every attack can be quite tedious when there's nothing visible that'll be activated or applied, players often cause problems by saying nothing & then get into rule sharking debates, or just agree to clarify the gamestate by asking if the other player has anything to activate before entering the damage step, before going to damage calculation, and before/after the monster actually goes to the Graveyard.

Edit - ... and now something has changed, well sort of.

Question said:

From: 'Dash'
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:27 PM
To: us-ygorules@konami.com
Subject: Damage Step and monster effects

1) Does Red Dragon Archfiends effect that destroys defense position monsters 'activate' and start a chain?

2) If a Red Dragon Archfiend attacks a defense position Herald of Perfection, can Herald of Perfection's effect be chained to negate Red Dragon Archfiend's effect that destroys defense position monsters? or is this ruled like Stardust Dragon being destroyed in battle by Red Dragon Archfiend?

Basically, can you choose to activate the non-mandatory quick effect or optional trigger effect of a monster if that monster is considered destroyed by battle?

3) Does the continuous effect of a monster like Fossil Dyna Pachycephalo or Jinzo stop being applied during the damage step if that monster is destroyed by battle? If so when would the continuous effect stop being applied?

4) If Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer attacks another Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer that has a lower ATK and inflicts battle damage, can the Kycoo that attacked have its effect activated to remove cards from play?

5) A monster attacks Fossil Dyna Pachycephalo and inflicts battle damage, can the effect of Tragoedia be activated.

6) Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer attacks Aurkus, Lightsworn Druid and inflicts battle damage, can Kycoo's effect target Lightsworn monsters in the graveyard for removal?

Thanks again for your time. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Answer said:

RE: Damage Step and monster effects‏
From: US YGO Rules (us-ygorules@konami.com)
Sent: Wed 6/02/10 7:45 PM
To: 'Dash'

1. Yes, it starts a Chain.

2. You cannot activate the effect of Herald of Perfection if it has already been destroyed by battle during damage calculation.

3. Continuous effects of monsters stop being applied as soon as they are determined to be destroyed during damage calculation.

4. If your Kycoo destroys theirs, their Kycoo's effect stops applying and you can remove cards from their Graveyard.

5. Tragoedia can be activated here.

6. If Aurkus is destroyed, you can target Lightsworn monsters with Kycoo's effect.

So the gist of this that unlike the article had indicated, monsters that are considered to be destroyed by the Damage Calculation process will now have their continous effect stop applying at that time (rather than waiting until the Flip Effect timing for that), and optional effects like that of Stardust Dragon & Herald of Perfection cannot be activated by monsters that are considered to be destroyed. We've had some rulings telling us this for a while, but until now, there wasn't anything legit to tell us that it was the norm, which now there is.

Edited by Val, 23 November 2010 - 01:30 PM.

[Sheik_the_Geek]

Val, on 28 May 2010 - 07:46 AM, said:

Nothing's changed since January of last year when we came across the "before damage calculation" vs "during damage calculation" changes, and if you scroll up the page to post #41 (might be on a previous page, depending on your forum settings), you'll see that I've written a condensed version of the chart that won't take 5 hours to go through.

When it comes to what you heard about going to "only 3 steps", its likely got more to do with the fact that since vocally going through all 7 windows for every attack can be quite tedious when there's nothing visible that'll be activated or applied, players often cause problems by saying nothing & then get into rule sharking debates, or just agree to clarify the gamestate by asking if the other player has anything to activate before entering the damage step, before going to damage calculation, and before/after the monster actually goes to the Graveyard.

Edit - ... and now something has changed, well sort of.



So the gist of this that unlike the article had indicated, monsters that are considered to be destroyed by the Damage Calculation process will now have their continous effect stop applying at that time (rather than waiting until the Flip Effect timing for that), and optional effects like that of Stardust Dragon & Herald of Perfection cannot be activated by monsters that are considered to be destroyed. We've had some rulings telling us this for a while, but until now, there wasn't anything legit to tell us that it was the norm, which now there is.

Getting this late, but the RDA vs Herald ruling came up at my locals several times in the past and I had no idea how too rule it. I ultimately had to say since his effect does start a chain, it could be negated. Thanks though.

Edited by Sheik_the_Geek, 24 November 2010 - 04:47 AM.

[Nomad]

That's what I'd have said too (what with the fact that Herald of Perfection is still face-up in the player's control), but at least we'll know better for the future.

I dunno if you're a Jewel or Princess Bride fan, but I like to think of these monsters (that're still on the field, but have already been considered to be destroyed by battle) as being "mostly dead". They just haven't been fully dragged down into the grave, just yet.

[Sheik_the_Geek]

Val, on 25 November 2010 - 10:58 PM, said:

That's what I'd have said too (what with the fact that Herald of Perfection is still face-up in the player's control), but at least we'll know better for the future.

I dunno if you're a Jewel or Princess Bride fan, but I like to think of these monsters (that're still on the field, but have already been considered to be destroyed by battle) as being "mostly dead". They just haven't been fully dragged down into the grave, just yet.

lol, not really >.>

[Yugioh Genius.]

So does this mean?:

Ehren atk's f/d spy.

Spy flips and gets effect.

Ehren Bounces Spy back to deck.

Specialed Keeper monster stays on field.

[Nomad]

Pretty much, but lets go over how this will play out in chronological order using the breakdown, assuming that only the mentioned cards are involved.


Start of the Damage Step - Nothing yet.

Flipping the monster - Spy's flip effect will be triggered, but not activated. That's why I like to think of this time as when we simply take account of the flip effect's presence.

Before Damage Calculation - Ehren's effect will be resolved, sending the flipped Spy back to the owner's deck.

Damage Calculation - Nothing, as there's no battle

Inflict Damage/After Calculation - Nothing happens here, as there was no battle

Flip Effect timing - Resolve Spy's effect by special summoning a Gravekeeper's monster. In most cases, it would need/be able to special summon itself.

End of Damage Step - Nothing here.


... so as you said, you'd flip up the spy, return it to the deck, and then special summon a monster from the deck. The new monster stays.