19 replies to this topic

[Unknown Survivor]

Yeah, I"m kinda bored, so I think I might go to the M12 prerelease next week...unfortunately, I don't really know draft strategies. I also wouldn't mind knowing how to play sealed.

From what I see, red and white seem to be the strongest draft colors in M12, am I right? o.O

It'd be cool if someone could take a bit of time to explain some basic draft strategies to me. :D

[Ominous]

Go with what costs less, don't take rares unless they're the color that you want to go with or they're incredibly game changing. If you have any bombs when you open packs like any of the Titans that will change gameplay towards your favor, play them. Also depending on your opening pack, you might deviate from the color you originally wanted to go with. Personally I think white and green are the strongest colors in the set so far, but black is good as well.

Personally i'd go with any of these combinations, if you can, don't be afraid to change things up, if you see there isn't enough of the color(s) you need/want.

Red/Black.
Black/Green.
Green/White.

Edited by Ominous, 04 July 2011 - 04:08 AM.

[Sage]

When drafting, keep in mind BREAD.

Bombs
Removal
Efficient Spells
Aggro
Dregs

Bombs are big spells that change the tide of the game just for being cast. In M12, the titans (especially Sun, Inferno, and Grave) and Planeswalkers (any of them, really) are the best examples. Bombs don't have to be mythics, though, and not all mythics are always bombs. If you open one, then you should really try to be able to put it into your deck.

Removal is self-explanatory. Cards that get rid of opponent's threats. Versatile removal is best. In M12 you should be looking for Day of Judgment, Pacifism, Oblivion Ring, Ice Cage, Doom Blade, Sorin's Thirst, Chandra's Outrage, Fireball, Grim Lavamancer, Incinerate, etc. You get it. Black and Red have the best removal in this set, for the most part.

Efficient Spells change every set. For example, Honor of the Pure is an efficient spell, while Mighty Leap generally isn't. Chandra's Phoenix can be a very efficient card in the right deck, as well.. Goblin Bangchuckers, not so much. Efficient Spells are just cards that go that extra little way. You want to see them in the games you play because they actually give you a good chance at winning.

Aggro is just fast threats/damage. One great piece of advice for MTG in general (especially Draft, though) is that you want your deck to either be a lot faster than theirs, or just a little bit slower. If your deck is full of 5-drops then you're going to lose both to aggro decks that beat you before you can lay any threats or get you low enough so that your threats don't matter, OR you can lose to a deck full of 6-drops that outclass your 5-drops. It's up to you how much early game pressure you want, but if you're playing a deck like Dinosaurs (big creatures) then you're just going to want enough removal/efficient blockers to last you until you can drop threat after threat late game that they can't keep up with.

Dregs is just fillers. Cards you don't want to pick, but you end up with anyway. Your deck most likely won't be all amazing cards, so you're going to have to throw in a couple 2/2 guys for 3 if you want to stay alive.

---

Remember that nobody else really knows how to draft M12 yet either, so just take a minute to look over the cards in the set and decide what's good and what's not. Don't commit to a color too early and don't be afraid to splash if you have something worth splashing for. Know what part of the game you're strongest at and keep making it stronger while making sure that you don't just lose in the other parts.

Good reads:

http://www.starcityg...w_To_Draft.html (BREAD)
http://magic.tcgplay...cle.asp?ID=8186 (Beyond BREAD pt 1)
http://magic.tcgplay...cle.asp?ID=8193 (Beyond BREAD pt 2)

[Unknown Survivor]

Ominous, why do you think Green is a strong color in the set? I'm not really seeing it...they've got like 1 removal card and some lackluster big beaters. Maybe one or two bombs?
Blue also seems like a safe color too.


Sage, that stuff was good reading :D I feel like I have problems separating between efficient spells and Dregs ;s And probably some of the less obvious bombs...

[Sage]

Generally, efficient spells are going to either get you ahead immediately, or accomplish more than one goal. Cards that replace themselves in a decent way are typically efficient (in SOM: Treasure Mage, Veridian Emissary, Darkslick Drake). Typically, First Strike is also an efficient ability in Draft. Potentially any card that has more than one use is an efficient spell. In m12 I'd say that Gravedigger, Archon of Justice, Grim Lavamancer, and more. In addition, it's often very efficient to have a creature with high toughness for its mana cost, this is especially true if the creature does have power, doesn't have defender, and does have reach/flying. Spiders are often great cards in draft to protect from all kinds of midrange threat. Stingerfling Spider is an especially efficient spider in M12, potentially.

For bombs, you want them to have a direct and important impact on the game whenever you play them. The titans are great examples of this because once they hit the battlefield they already do something even if they are removed (and this is more true for Inferno, Sun, and Grave). Typically, you don't want to rely on simple big creatures for bombs as they can simply be removed, but it can be a valid plan if you have enough threats earlier in the game or enough late threats so your opponent can't get rid of all of them. Angelic Destiny is a bomb because it makes every single creature you have a Baneslayer Angel. Any big creature has the potential to be a bomb, but you'll need more of the less efficient bombs if you want them to be enough.


It all sort of depends on the draft format, though. So nobody knows yet.

Edited by Sage, 04 July 2011 - 08:44 PM.

[Unknown Survivor]

Okay, I've been practice drafts online, and I'm often on 3rd or 4th pick on either the first or second pack, where I'm not totally committed to colors yet, and there always seems to be horrible cards left, and I just don't know what to pick. Should I just go for the best card regardless of its color, or grab something that might not be so useful for one of the color(s) I'm considering tentatively?

Also, I like to draft mostly turn 4 or later creatures...is that usually going to get me killed? The earlier creatures are usually just 1 toughness creatures that are mostly turn 1 or 2 drops. I'd say I'm split at like 50 before and after. Sample hands seem to give me mostly a single drop in the first 3 turns or so and usually a single instant, either counter or removal.

[Kaalia]

Unknown Survivor, on 06 July 2011 - 09:21 PM, said:

Okay, I've been practice drafts online, and I'm often on 3rd or 4th pick on either the first or second pack, where I'm not totally committed to colors yet, and there always seems to be horrible cards left, and I just don't know what to pick. Should I just go for the best card regardless of its color, or grab something that might not be so useful for one of the color(s) I'm considering tentatively?

Typically, you shouldn't be truly committed to your first color until around P1P4 (Pack 1 Pick 4) or so. If it's P2P4, then it's about the time you might be committing to your second color.

There will always be those horrifyingly bad packs. It's just one pick, don't worry too much about it. If absolutely feel the need to have a good pick even then, this is the pack that you hate in. Pick the card you would hate most to see.

Quote

Also, I like to draft mostly turn 4 or later creatures...is that usually going to get me killed?

That depends: Are they all decent sized threats? If not, then yes, it's likely to get you killed. At the very least, look for more 3 drops. I tend to find that 3 drops make up the core of most non-super aggro decks and even then, they'll have a decent amount as well.

Quote

The earlier creatures are usually just 1 toughness creatures that are mostly turn 1 or 2 drops.

1 toughness creatures have their uses. Most of them in Scars block and M12 tend to be utility creatures, so don't discount them.

Quote

Sample hands seem to give me mostly a single drop in the first 3 turns or so and usually a single instant, either counter or removal.

As I said, load up on some more 3 drops, and it should remedy this.

[Unknown Survivor]

Oh cool. How does grabbing side deck cards work? I realize it's around the latest picks I should do, but I'm wondering if it's common to side into a new color altogether? Though I'd imagine it usually isn't, since those late picks won't really have many, if at any, good picks. Since it's that case, I'd imagine it would be strong to hold have either white or green since they have like Demystify, Stave Off, Naturalize, and Plummets...

One more thing...a few general gameplay questions I've come across...
Can you use an ability on a Planeswalker that would drop it to zero loytalty?
If I declare an attack and they declare a single color's worth of blocker(s), and I use Stave Off to give my creature protection from that color, does the attack go through it or do I need to use Stave Off before I declare the attack?
Can you chain Autumn's Veil to a black/blue counter to basically negate the counter?

Edited by Unknown Survivor, 07 July 2011 - 06:24 AM.

[Sage]

Unknown Survivor, on 07 July 2011 - 04:56 AM, said:

Oh cool. How does grabbing side deck cards work? I realize it's around the latest picks I should do, but I'm wondering if it's common to side into a new color altogether? Though I'd imagine it usually isn't, since those late picks won't really have many, if at any, good picks. Since it's that case, I'd imagine it would be strong to hold have either white or green since they have like Demystify, Stave Off, Naturalize, and Plummets...

One more thing...a few general gameplay questions I've come across...
Can you use an ability on a Planeswalker that would drop it to zero loytalty?
If I declare an attack and they declare a single color's worth of blocker(s), and I use Stave Off to give my creature protection from that color, does the attack go through it or do I need to use Stave Off before I declare the attack?
Can you chain Autumn's Veil to a black/blue counter to basically negate the counter?

Sideboarding is a very crude art in drafts, because usually you're going to want to get good cards for your main deck first. But yes, specific hate cards are generally the ones you're going to want in your sideboard. In M12, you're looking for the enemy hate cycle in particular (Autumn's Veil, Celestial Purge, Flashfreeze, Deathmark, Combust). In addition, you may want to side more early game cards or combat tricks to fight aggro decks, or potentially try to make your deck more aggro if facing a slower control deck.

You can use a Planeswalker ability as long as it has enough Loyalty to use it. If the Loyalty goes to 0 after using the ability, the Planeswalker is destroyed.

You would have to use Stave Off any time before they declare blockers. This could be at the beginning of the Combat Step, or any time during the Declare Attackers step. If you wait to use it until after they block then your creature will still be blocked but will receive no damage from creatures it has protection from.

Yes, you can. There are some interesting rulings on Veil, however, as it won't actually 'counter' the card that is trying to counter your spell, and so any other parts of the counter they are using will still resolve.

Spoiler

After Autumn's Veil resolves, any spell you control that turn can still be targeted by spells that try to counter it (such as Cancel), regardless of their color. If those spells are blue or black at the time they would resolve, they will resolve, but the part of their effect that would counter the spell you control simply won't do anything. Any other effects those spells have will work as normal.

-EDIT: Where are you drafting M12?

Edited by Sage, 07 July 2011 - 11:02 PM.

[Kaalia]

Also, note that if you play multiple colors and you're not sure on how to set up your manabase, make sure you pick up a few extra basics for your sideboard. It never hurts and it's completely legal.

[Unknown Survivor]

Sage, I'll be playing at some hobby shop in Vegas...haven't really decided how far I want to drive for a quality tournament yet lol

EDIT: I also see articles say splash in Red if you pull a Fireball or something...that wouldn't be put a few Mountains in just to play a single Fireball, would it? Or would it mean get a few reds in addition to splash?

Edited by Unknown Survivor, 08 July 2011 - 08:14 PM.

[Kaalia]

Fireball is awesome enough to splash for as the only red card in a deck. It's ridiculously powerful in draft.

[Unknown Survivor]

Wow...Interesting. So would it be splash in like 2 mountains?

[Sage]

Depends on your deck, really. If you have enough alternate mana sources or card search/sifting then you can potentially get away with only 1 mountain. Two is usually safe, or even 3 if your deck isn't very reliant on multiple mana of other colors or if you have another 1 or 2 red cards you want to splash. It's always nice to splash, but the last thing you want is it to be a dead card without the correct mana to cast it. Looking at M12, there are a lot of cards that make splashing relatively easy (Birds of Paradise, Manalith, Rampant Growth, Solemn Simulacrum, Dual Lands) so if you can grab a couple of those then I'd say it's safe to splash only a single mountain; otherwise, 2 is certainly the more safe option.

Are you practicing somewhere online atm? I haven't looked around to find a reliable m12 draft yet.

NVM: Found this one

http://www.magicdraftsim.com/

Edited by Sage, 08 July 2011 - 10:06 PM.

[Unknown Survivor]

Cool..had tons of fun today, so I feel obligated to give a report.
Oh...and I had no idea open dueling is crap and useless. I wasted 13 bucks on that >.> gogo starter deck? ;/

Anyways, onto more interesting stuff.

First real draft of my life then...
I drafted Green/Blue. In my opinion, it was a horrible draft for me. The guy next to me drafted Inferno Titan first pack, and then Chandra third pack. Plus, I passed a crap ton of good reds to him as well, since I couldn't fit red when I found out it was that open. In addition, some guy opened a 2 Day of Judgments, 1 foil, 2 Lawkeepers, 2 Honor of the Pure, a ton of Griffins with Griffin Rider...I guess my bad luck from YGO Prereleases carries over to MTG. I passed enough that the 2 people on my left both had enough to do red...I'm pretty bad at this.

Ended up with:

Llanowar Elves
Jade Mage
Brindle Boar
Sacred Wolf
Trollhide
Lurking Crocodile
Hunter's Insight
Acidic Slime
Stingerfling Spider
Overrun
Vastwood Gorger
Carnage Wurm
Ponder
Unsummon
Merfolk Mesmerist
Alluring Siren
Ice Cage
Ice Cage
Ice Cage
Ice Cage
Belltower Sphinx
Chasm Drake
Greatsword
10x Forest
7x Island

Some stuff for the side included another Unsummon, Master Thief, Flashfreeze, Lure, Reclaim, Fog, Naturalize, Lurking Crocodile, Trollhide, and Lurking Bear. I wanted to splash Black in there, but I could only draft a single Doom Blade.

So first round, I played someone with a green/white deck I think? I was mana screwed like game 1, and then she got mana screwed games 2 and 3. Second round, I think I played a Red/Blue deck with a set of Circle of Fires. I just flew over that stuff with Chasm Drake for one game, and then a bloodthirsted Carnage Wurm pretty much wins that. In finals, I got raped by Lawkeepers...wtf is that broken crap? Broke through all my Ice Cages and whatnot and tapped everything big....though I did manage to take game 1 with Overrun. Oh well, 4 packs isn't bad for a first time drafter.

Ate some lunch, then came back for sealed...of course, my luck blows there as well. I find I preferred drafts much more. I did open a Hellkite though...but people were popping open holo planeswalkers and whatnot...it's so lame opening like the second worst mythic. Whatever, so I made black/red because I lack removal...in all colors. No fireballs, one shock, 2 flings, one doomblade, 2 sorin's thirst, no pacifism or oblivion rings, no ice cages...it's like...are you serious? Well, I was pretty much forced into black thanks to 2 Sengir Vampires and I didn't want to ditch the hellkite. I did have 2 Lawkeepers which I desperately wanted to play, but I had 2 white flyers and 4 griffin riders, and no white bomb either. 2 Ponder, Azure Mage, and Phantasmal Dragon kinda made me want to blue, but I didn't have anything else....Such fail packs...I opened Sundial of the Infinite, Doubling Chant, and Worldslayer in my first 3 packs...

Goblin Fireslinger
Goblin Fireslinger
Shock
Stormblood Berserker
Reverberate (I was expecting a lot of removal...I was wrong. I used it zero times.)
Crimson Mage
Blood Ogre
Furyborn Hellkite
Tormented Soul
Doom Blade
Sorin's Thirst
Sorin's Thirst
Onyx Mage
Blood Seeker
Bloodrage Vampire
Bloodrage Vampire
Gravedigger
Vampire Outcasts
Sengir Vampire
Sengir Vampire
Sutured Ghoul
Swiftfoot Boots (Huge mistake...it was useless...I thought it would be cool for Sengir Vampire with boots, but Crown of Empires should have been my choice)
11x Swamp
7x Mountain

The deck blew so hard. I got mana screwed either with 2 mana all game, or drew lands from turn 5 onwards. It was originally 10 swamps, but I added one because I was short too many times. I did go 2-2 drop in the tournament with it though. I learned that Tormented Soul and Goblin Fireslinger are boss. I won like 4 games just chipping at people for 2-3 damage a turn, because I amazingly drew those most of my games. Lifelink is also amazing on Bloodrage Vampire...I made a comeback from 2 life once because of it. Whatever, that was a big waste of time ;/ Got 2 packs for participating and got Djinn of Wishes and Visions of Beyond...Totally not worth the 25 with the 2 dollar mythic and like 3 dollar Visions...

So...draft time...this one lasted to like 11:30PM ;[
First pack...I open a dual land .-. so useless, so I took a Cudgel Troll. It turned out to be good, because no one drafted near me drafted Green, so I ended up with enough to get a mono-green deck...I tried to get some white in there since I picked up a Pacifism, but that was basically it...
Well, I get a good amount of decent stuff. Second pack, I open a Hellkite....which I'm forced to hate draft since both sides of me were drafted Red. And once again, more green stuff floats my way, and I'd rather take green than off-color fail picks. I even got a 14th pick Arachnus Web there.
Third pack, I open Angelic Destiny, and I decide to force white in there somehow, so I take whatever white I can, which turns out to be workable actually.

Carnage Wurm
Greater Basilisk
Stingerfling Spider
Acidic Slime
Acidic Slime
Giant Spider
Giant Spider
Giant Spider
Cudgel Troll
Arachnus Web
Arachnus Web
Hunter's Insight
Sacred Wolf
Brindle Boar
Plummet
Jade Mage
Llanowar Elves
Stonehorn Dignitary
Angelic Destiny
Assault Griffin
Auramancer
Pacifism
Stave Off
11x Forest
6x Plains

It actually worked out decently, though it did suck that I played on a single plains a lot and drew Angelic Destiny a ton. Mana curve is horrible though, but once I get four to five mana, I just have drops every turn. Luckily, half of the drafters got pretty bad decks as well, so I actually won decently. In round one, Vengeful Pharaoh did some work on me and it took like 20 turns for me to play around it ;s
I kinda raped round two guy since his deck blew, though I lost a game to an enchanted Thran Golem, and I split finals since I hate white decks with a passion. Seriously...Gideon's Lawkeeper is broken.

I'm kinda surprised I actually did decent, especially with such crappy drafts for me, plus me playing Green. Also learned that Tortured Soul and Goblin Fireslinger really get there...Jade Mage is pretty good too. Fun day overall. Though I spent $71 total ;s and got like 13 packs back only, not counting drafts, and the cards I pulled probably total about 10 dollars ;/

[Kaalia]

I know you might have a hard time with this, but could you possibly post every card you opened for sealed? It might help me explain things a bit better there.

Your draft decks actually are really good, but if everyone elses picks are like you say, then it's just poor luck that you got shafted.(I was the only person in my entire prerelease who didn't open a single mythic. =[)

The only thing is that I probably would have played the second Unsummon maindecked over Vastwood Gorger in the first draft. While VG is beef, he's rather inefficient beef and you had enough creatures anyway.

Edited by Kaalia, 10 July 2011 - 05:52 AM.

[Unknown Survivor]

Well, I chose the Vastwood Gorger because I didn't want to have no six drop beaters. I try to have some for every turn...

I actually can post every card I opened...I unconsciously had them separated into separate piles somehow...

Sundial of the Infinite
Worldslayer
Swiftfoot Boots
Crown of Empires
Kite Shield
Crumbling Colossus
Kraken's Eye

Buried Ruin

Ponder
Ponder
Phantasmal Bear
Azure Mage
Alluring Siren
Coral Merfolk
Negate
Negate
Skywinder Drake
Phantasmal Dragon
Belltower Sphinx

Gideon's Lawkeeper
Gideon's Lawkeeper
Demystify
Pride Guardian
Divine Favor
Storm Front Pegasus
Griffin Rider
Griffin Rider
Griffin Rider
Griffin Rider
Griffin Sentinel
Assault Griffin
Angel's Mercy

Reclaim
Titanic Growth
Titanic Growth
Titanic Growth
Titanic Growth
Rampant Growth
Rampant Growth
Garruk's Companion
Brindle Boar
Brindle Boar
Arachnus Web
Stampeding Rhino
Stampeding Rhino
Stampeding Rhino
Doubling Chant
Carnage Wurm

Disentomb
Tormented Soul
Sorin's Thirst
Sorin's Thirst
Distress
Distress
Zombie Infestation
Onyx Mage
Blood Seeker
Doom Blade
Mind Rot
Mind Rot
Bloodrage Vampire
Bloodrage Vampire
Hideous Visage
Devouring Swarm
Vampire Outcasts
Brink of Disaster
Gravedigger
Sengir Vampire
Sengir Vampire
Sutured Ghoul

Goblin Fireslinger
Goblin Fireslinger
Shock
Firebreathing
Crimson Mage
Goblin Piker
Reverberate
Stormblood Berserker
Fling
Fling
Blood Ogre
Slaughter Cry
Bonebreaker Giant
Furyborn Hellkite



well, now looking at this stuff again, it seems like I could have made a better choice if I didn't pick red. I think I could have made Black/Green work in this case...but I was just reluctant since I expected a ton of flyers and I opened no Spiders and insufficient Arachnus Webs. Plus, I was reluctant to ditch the Hellkite I guess. I tried really hard to splash in white...but I got no removal...though after seeing Lawkeepers in action, I think those two by themselves might have been enough...

Edited by Unknown Survivor, 10 July 2011 - 02:56 PM.

[Kaalia]

Silly goose, 6 drops aren't required. I won my sealed with 3 5 drops and nothing higher.

You're right. Black/Green would've been far better. No splash though because your black stuff all has heavy mana requirements.

I would've played this:

Creatures: 15
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Carnage Wurm
2 Sengir Vampire
3 Stampeding Rhino
1 Gravedigger
1 Vampire Outcasts
1 Bloodrage Vampire(Alternately, you could play the Crown of Empires in this spot)
2 Brindle Boar
1 Devouring Swarm
1 Onyx Mage
1 Tormented Soul

Non-Creature Spells: 8
1 Doom Blade
2 Rampant Growth
2 Distress
2 Sorin's Thirst
1 Arachnus Web

Lands: 17
7 Forest
10 Swamp

Dinos variant. early bit of stall until you start landing big dudes.

Edited by Kaalia, 10 July 2011 - 03:27 PM.

[Unknown Survivor]

Huh? O.o How are you winning with only five drops? That stuff usually isn't very strong...if they've got some stall/removal and end up dropping their bombs, that usually ends me ;s
I'd be really worried about flyers though...no Plummets, Spiders, and very limited black removal..

Why rampant growths? I didn't think you needed them unless you went like tri-colors.

[Kaalia]

I'm just that awesome...and lucky, but mostly awesome. I actually didn't open a single card in my entire pool that cost more than 5, so I couldn't play anything higher.

Their fliers won't mean squat when you're smashing their face in with big tramply dudes(Or if you've got a Sengir Vampire flying around up there).

Rampant Growths are normally to enable splashes, but in this deck, they help you get those big huge dudes down earlier(and more consistently in the case of Sutured Ghoul).

Edited by Kaalia, 10 July 2011 - 03:56 PM.