62 replies to this topic

[bherrell2]

I'm really not going to sit here and say that I am better than everyone and you all need to get better, because that isn't true. However, you are wasting your time online honestly.

I don't know how many people on ETC don't play IRL, but I've been in so many online yugioh communities to see there are a substantial amount of people who don't.

Lets just get right down to it: There is a huge difference between duelingnetwork and irl yugioh. Everyone online complains about how plumty everything is, yugioh is too expensive, get all upset over nothing, etc. To be honest, irl yugioh is pretty good. There aren't as many cheaters as you really think, and there is just less bullplum. Yes you will get sacked sometimes but not nearly as often as you do on DN, and skill truly becomes relevant. All of a sudden yugioh becomes tangible and you can improve so much faster than you can online. All of a sudden yugioh isn't a nerdy waste of money, and it becomes a social, profitable, and respectable hobby you play with friends. Every regional I go to, I think of everyone as my friend (I am not gay) because we all share yugioh. To be quite honest I am a somewhat quiet and reserved person at school and other social-outlets, but at yugioh events I am talkative and constructive. I am not anti-social but the fact of the matter is yugioh is so much more than the plumty online community DN presents.

I think it is also really hard to be a respectable figure of this game without playing irl for a decent amount of time and attending a couple regionals. That's cool if you are a moderator on x big ygo forum and have a good duelingnetwork w/l ratio, but you a virgin to the actual game of yugioh. I don't want to get a lot into this, but I play so much better irl than I do online. I see my opponent's face, his cards, sleeves, mat, his reactions. I am able to make so many more reads and just think better than staring at my trashy computer and virtual cards. I don't have to call admins or link my opponent to rulings because people irl are substantially more mature and well, ACTUAL people! The game of yugioh becomes much more than a simple game whereas on dn it is quite simple.

I guess the crux of all of this is you probably don't have a legitimate excuse to not play irl and are somewhat of a black hole. Something to understand is that yugioh isn't a money-pit and the game is very profitable. It won't replace a job or make you more than a grand or two a year casually, but it can be free by any means. Yugioh is EXTREMELY social. I understand we "aren't cool" if we talk about yugioh publically but man to man, I have no problem if someone plays yugioh all day if it doesn't hurt them. I have a lot of friends from this game and would never blow them off to go be with other people unless I had a real reason.

so, thoughts? did this pretty quick

Edited by bherrell2, 31 December 2011 - 11:08 AM.

[Shadow]

Yeah this is a great point and all except you're gonna get random little outliers that literally can't do anything but play online. I compare it a lot to people who play fighting games but don't own a T-stick or have a scene readily available to them (Which, I happen to be a part of both problems). If you live on the coasts or in metropolitan areas in states that are not total plum, you really don't have a reason to not get out and be social with your hobby. However, not everyone lives in populated areas in states that are not total plum - I'm just saying.

I just looked at the regional list for 2011 and 2012. Zero regionals in Oklahoma - a place that hosted a SJC a few years ago. There's only 2 legitimate scenes (Oklahoma City, Tulsa) and there have been a few regionals in Ardmore but I think those stopped in 2008 or 9. The closest regional is actually Arlington, TX and for me that's an 8 hour drive and that's a 4-6 hour drive for anyone in Oklahoma City. I have never liked where Komami has put regionals in this area because they are never in metropolitan areas and force EVERYONE to drive hours out of their way to play a game that might have 80-100 people tops at it.

tl;dr - Isn't always the player's fault. Part of it can be living conditions, part of it can be Konami being unintelligent.

[bherrell2]

Shadow, on 26 December 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

Yeah this is a great point and all except you're gonna get random little outliers that literally can't do anything but play online. I compare it a lot to people who play fighting games but don't own a T-stick or have a scene readily available to them (Which, I happen to be a part of both problems). If you live on the coasts or in metropolitan areas in states that are not total plum, you really don't have a reason to not get out and be social with your hobby. However, not everyone lives in populated areas in states that are not total plum - I'm just saying.

I just looked at the regional list for 2011 and 2012. Zero regionals in Oklahoma - a place that hosted a SJC a few years ago. There's only 2 legitimate scenes (Oklahoma City, Tulsa) and there have been a few regionals in Ardmore but I think those stopped in 2008 or 9. The closest regional is actually Arlington, TX and for me that's an 8 hour drive and that's a 4-6 hour drive for anyone in Oklahoma City. I have never liked where Komami has put regionals in this area because they are never in metropolitan areas and force EVERYONE to drive hours out of their way to play a game that might have 80-100 people tops at it.

tl;dr - Isn't always the player's fault. Part of it can be living conditions, part of it can be Konami being unintelligent.

While this is true you don't always have to be going to regionals. There are locals in almost every populated area in the country. In Oklahoma there are quite a few official Konami stores which means your area most likely has a yugioh scene. I'm quite surprised they don't have regionals with that many locals, but still. I would still play irl even if I could only attend 1-2 regionals a year. In Colorado, there are 3 regionals a year, and I only go to locals about once a month because the one in my area is iffy. Going to locals multiple times a month is definitely enough to warrant playing irl imo (which I believe you can do).

If there aren't any locals within a reasonable amount of time, no regionals, and no irl scene then I guess you are just out of luck, but with most people that isn't the case. There are a lot of unofficial locals (the one I go to is unofficial) you can find by asking around and using google. Though if you are just out of luck, then there isn't much to be said.

Edited by bherrell2, 26 December 2011 - 12:18 PM.

[✖ Steve ✖]

What about those who played IRL, but stopped playing IRL for life reasons, then just play online to keep up with the game? There's a huge flaw in your argument. You're basically attacking whoever doesn't want to put time, money and effort into the game, but who still enjoy it. Therefore, I see this whole topic as a moot attempt to troll.

Edited by Punk, 26 December 2011 - 12:24 PM.

[Shadow]

I don't think Konami has updated their site in a long time. I know for a fact a lot of those stores that used to be official either folded or stopped playing Yugioh. I think there's one left in Tulsa, but that's it to my somewhat limited knowledge.

I'm not disagreeing with your point, it's actually very sound and valid. I'm just saying, there are extenuating circumstances for players who don't live on the coasts and live in sparsely populated states or states with downright awful infrastructure.

[Apollo]

When I played, I only played online.

It's not worth wasting money over. It's a time killer when you're bored and I met some pretty cool people from a lot of different sites, but that's about it. It's not something I want to waste anymore time on, especially when it comes to traveling to Regionals or YCS. I'm not saying that playing online is the same, or even as fulfilling, as playing in real life. They're two different experiences, with really two different motives. To say that one is useless without the other is actually pretty ignorant.

[bherrell2]

Punk, on 26 December 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

What about those who played IRL, but stopped playing IRL for life reasons, then just play online to keep up with the game? There's a huge flaw in your argument. You're basically attacking whoever doesn't want to put time, money and effort into the game, but who still enjoy it. Therefore, I see this whole topic as a moot attempt to troll.

There are obviously going to be exceptions. You have to define what really constitutes as "playing" this game. If you are logging into DN once a week and not heavily-theorizing or trying to improve I would not consider you to be a duelist therefore have no reason to play irl. If you don't have the time to play IRL, you probably don't have the time to be an active and "productive" member of online yugioh communities. That's completely open to interpretation but you get the point.

If you are an adult with a job and genuinely enjoy yugioh, you probably have the ability to spend 5-10 hours a week playing this game and can make a 400$ investment or work something out for cards.

It really depends on your individual situation and I don't want to offend you, but you if you honestly enjoy something to where it makes you happy and satisfies you, you shouldn't let "life" get in the way unless you are completely ok with the change. I really enjoy yugioh and I'll quit when I go to college just for the sake of conveniency, but I guess it just depends on your certain situation.

[bherrell2]

Apollo, on 26 December 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

When I played, I only played online.

It's not worth wasting money over. It's a time killer when you're bored and I met some pretty cool people from a lot of different sites, but that's about it. It's not something I want to waste anymore time on, especially when it comes to traveling to Regionals or YCS. I'm not saying that playing online is the same, or even as fulfilling, as playing in real life. They're two different experiences, with really two different motives. To say that one is useless without the other is actually pretty ignorant.

I addressed the money-point. It's really not remotely difficult or time-consuming to be smart with your investments and trade for profit. That is what keeps a large portion of the playerbase in the game.

You sound like you don't enjoy it much. I understand that there is a time and place to move-on, but I still have that excitement and joy with the game. If you don't, there really isn't a reason to play it at all. However, most people who play online have some type of fun or satisfaction from the game to warrant playing it irl.

There just isn't a purpose to online yugioh without irl yugioh. Don't respond to this with like "what is the purpose of irl yugioh then?" because I think that has an obvious answer if you aren't technical. Online yugioh just doesn't have any higher-meaning or goals to reach while irl is stimulating and to a degree, out-going. It's very similar to any other social activity.

With all of that being said I don't see how someone could genuinely enjoy yugioh online without it irl. It seems very empty and nonrewarding to spend time on unless you are also playing irl.

[✖ Steve ✖]

bherrell2, on 26 December 2011 - 12:32 PM, said:

There are obviously going to be exceptions. You have to define what really constitutes as "playing" this game. If you are logging into DN once a week and not heavily-theorizing or trying to improve I would not consider you to be a duelist therefore have no reason to play irl. If you don't have the time to play IRL, you probably don't have the time to be an active and "productive" member of online yugioh communities. That's completely open to interpretation but you get the point.

Do you "play" video games? It's basically the same concept. If you are only playing games like Madden once a week because it's something you enjoy, why aren't you going out and playing real football? Oh, that's right, because it involves being active and productive in something that you enjoy picking up once in a while. You can't distinguish between online and IRL YGO without taking the same concept to heart.

Quote

If you are an adult with a job and genuinely enjoy yugioh, you probably have the ability to spend 5-10 hours a week playing this game and can make a 400$ investment or work something out for cards.

First off, that's too much of an investment considering the fact that most people who play this game are teenagers and people in their early 20s. Taking into account if you live in the US, $400 is not something anyone can just go and decide, "hey I wanna give up this money and a good amount of time in order to earn this back." If you enjoy doing it, it's still not as easy as just giving up money in a time where no one can really afford anything unless it is handed to you. Those who have to earn money to survive usually take that precedence over playing YGO. Once again, you're making a broad statement that doesn't account for probably 25% of the YGO community at the very least.

Quote

It really depends on your individual situation and I don't want to offend you, but you if you honestly enjoy something to where it makes you happy and satisfies you, you shouldn't let "life" get in the way unless you are completely ok with the change. I really enjoy yugioh and I'll quit when I go to college just for the sake of conveniency, but I guess it just depends on your certain situation.

Making such a broad statement with an attack on those who like to balance out their life between work, school, and ygo is obviously going to "offend" some people. It's not that YGO takes a backseat for the sake of taking a backseat. It's the fact that in the larger scheme of things, a hobby is still JUST a hobby. School, work, and networking take precedence over a hobby that may cost you more opportunities than it provides.

[Delx]

I agree with the concept but you came off pretty harsh lol

but yeah I definitely agree with the whole thing where you're trying to make the most out of a hobby and it's a good experience rather than just dabbling, and if you're just dabbling don't expect to be taken seriously etc. Oh well.

[bherrell2]

Punk, on 26 December 2011 - 12:44 PM, said:

Do you "play" video games? It's basically the same concept. If you are only playing games like Madden once a week because it's something you enjoy, why aren't you going out and playing real football? Oh, that's right, because it involves being active and productive in something that you enjoy picking up once in a while. You can't distinguish between online and IRL YGO without taking the same concept to heart.




First off, that's too much of an investment considering the fact that most people who play this game are teenagers and people in their early 20s. Taking into account if you live in the US, $400 is not something anyone can just go and decide, "hey I wanna give up this money and a good amount of time in order to earn this back." If you enjoy doing it, it's still not as easy as just giving up money in a time where no one can really afford anything unless it is handed to you. Those who have to earn money to survive usually take that precedence over playing YGO. Once again, you're making a broad statement that doesn't account for probably 25% of the YGO community at the very least.



Making such a broad statement with an attack on those who like to balance out their life between work, school, and ygo is obviously going to "offend" some people. It's not that YGO takes a backseat for the sake of taking a backseat. It's the fact that in the larger scheme of things, a hobby is still JUST a hobby. School, work, and networking take precedence over a hobby that may cost you more opportunities than it provides.

1. I don't play video games because I found them to be a waste of time, lol. I have dabbled in it ever since I was like 10 and I found it non-rewarding and boring since it doesn't do anything for me. You can't compare irl football to video games because one is a physical activity that requires you to be in-shape while madden is simply a simulation of the NFL. Those are polar opposites in my opinion.

I don't think you realize irl yugioh has a point, purpose, unlike online. I can make friends, talk to fun people, make money, compete, improve, and manifest actual feelings that I will remember for the rest of my life vs. online where it is just like herp-derp. It is non-rewarding and empty, as previously stated.

2. It is just a matter of putting your priorities in order. If you want to play video games and pay for live or something, that is money lost. You can't think of yugioh as a micellaneous event you shouldn't take seriously, and you won't if you truly enjoy it. This topic has more to do with spending your money in a decent matter and again, I don't want to offend you but it just depends on the individual person. I mean, if you want me to show you how I deal with this then I can show you.

3. The only purpose of life is to be happy. The only reason you get-up in the morning and go to school/work/etc is to be happy at some-point where you can do the things you enjoy. If you are a very very busy person you probably don't dabble in yugioh and have other sources of enjoyment.

If you take the average 20 year student in college, with a part time job, a girlfriend, and some friends then he has no reason to play yugioh. He has other sources of enjoyment and a very sustainable life-style for the most part. If he chooses to play yugioh, then that's cool. There is a very small chance someone like that would play strictly online and not irl, while still taking it seriously. If he wants to bust out his Dark Magician deck for lolz on DN once in a while, that is a completely different argument and I retain respect for people like that. Though. if he started to spend a serious amount of time on online yugioh and on forums/etc, it would benefit him to play irl as addressed by the OP.

[Apollo]

bherrell2, on 26 December 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

I addressed the money-point. It's really not remotely difficult or time-consuming to be smart with your investments and trade for profit. That is what keeps a large portion of the playerbase in the game.

Of course it's more time consuming than just playing online, and more money consuming than spending nothing at all. And if you even want to break even/make a slight profit, then guess what that requires? More time. But again, they're too different experiences that you're trying to link together. I enjoy playing online, but it's useless unless I give up more time and money to play more in real life? That's a pretty tough sell.

bherrell2, on 26 December 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

There just isn't a purpose to online yugioh without irl yugioh. Don't respond to this with like "what is the purpose of irl yugioh then?" because I think that has an obvious answer if you aren't technical. Online yugioh just doesn't have any higher-meaning or goals to reach while irl is stimulating and to a degree, out-going. It's very similar to any other social activity.

Of course there's a point lol. People choose to play online to have fun, kill some time, and interact with friends/forums. Those who want to get noticed/respected in the game most of the time need to play in real life at big events, outside of rare players like Soul. Even those who just want to enjoy the hobby more in real life have different motives.

You can't say that option A is worthless without option B, if each option has different motives and goals. They're unrelated, unless a player CHOOSES to relate them. They're certainly not tied together on their own.

[Love. Hate. Cherish.]

I disagree entirely, but I think you only have this view since you are newer and don't have a war background.
First of all, there are plenty of great players who have only played online and are legends. Do you remember Kiet? He's never been to a regional. What about Soul? As much as I hate to admit it, he's been a consistent player for years and has never played more than like 2 events. Perhaps the ultimate example is Max Suffridge. He was on the most legendary team ever made, Alpha Omega. They dominated the online section for years. He went to a single regional to get his invite and then won the 2005 US Nationals having only played online.
Also what about the players that are infinitely better due to having played online? I think I'm a pretty good example of this. I didn't use to go to every YCS. I didn't even go to locals because the closest one was an hour away (it still is) and I didn't have a car nor a license. Sure I played in real life at regionals when I got the chance, but had it not been for the war section I would have almost certainly lost interest and not improved and evolved into a player with 4 premier tops.
The war section (of any site) is a shell of its former self. It used to be an outlet where you could play the best players from all over the world without leaving your room. For me this was an invaluable experience that made me the player I am today.

[bherrell2]

Apollo, on 26 December 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

Of course it's more time consuming than just playing online, and more money consuming than spending nothing at all. And if you even want to break even/make a slight profit, then guess what that requires? More time. But again, they're too different experiences that you're trying to link together. I enjoy playing online, but it's useless unless I give up more time and money to play more in real life? That's a pretty tough sell.



Of course there's a point lol. People choose to play online to have fun, kill some time, and interact with friends/forums. Those who want to get noticed/respected in the game most of the time need to play in real life at big events, outside of rare players like Soul. Even those who just want to enjoy the hobby more in real life have different motives.

You can't say that option A is worthless without option B, if each option has different motives and goals. They're unrelated, unless a player CHOOSES to relate them. They're certainly not tied together on their own.

Apollo, on 26 December 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

Of course it's more time consuming than just playing online, and more money consuming than spending nothing at all. And if you even want to break even/make a slight profit, then guess what that requires? More time. But again, they're too different experiences that you're trying to link together. I enjoy playing online, but it's useless unless I give up more time and money to play more in real life? That's a pretty tough sell.



Of course there's a point lol. People choose to play online to have fun, kill some time, and interact with friends/forums. Those who want to get noticed/respected in the game most of the time need to play in real life at big events, outside of rare players like Soul. Even those who just want to enjoy the hobby more in real life have different motives.

You can't say that option A is worthless without option B, if each option has different motives and goals. They're unrelated, unless a player CHOOSES to relate them. They're certainly not tied together on their own.

Going to a locals and losing money is the same amount of time as going to a locals, and making 300 dollars. You don't need to go to big events to break even. The purpose of my argument is you should probably be playing irl and just not just online. I understand online can be amusing to a degree and if you want to stay in your comfort zone, then sure, but you should understand you are missing out on stuff. I am not trying to directly flame the people who strictly play online.

People like Soul are rare examples, and regardless the concept still applies. He has achieved nothing tangible and he is a decent person regardless of rather he plays online yugioh or not. Anyone can be a moderator on DGZ and impress the players there without touching a card IRL, but that isn't something you are really "proud" of. Maybe we have different values, but I would never cry out in joy or anything because I have online friends lol and virtual meaningless credentials.

[bherrell2]

Love. Hate. Cherish., on 26 December 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

I disagree entirely, but I think you only have this view since you are newer and don't have a war background.
First of all, there are plenty of great players who have only played online and are legends. Do you remember Kiet? He's never been to a regional. What about Soul? As much as I hate to admit it, he's been a consistent player for years and has never played more than like 2 events. Perhaps the ultimate example is Max Suffridge. He was on the most legendary team ever made, Alpha Omega. They dominated the online section for years. He went to a single regional to get his invite and then won the 2005 US Nationals having only played online.
Also what about the players that are infinitely better due to having played online? I think I'm a pretty good example of this. I didn't use to go to every YCS. I didn't even go to locals because the closest one was an hour away (it still is) and I didn't have a car nor a license. Sure I played in real life at regionals when I got the chance, but had it not been for the war section I would have almost certainly lost interest and not improved and evolved into a player with 4 premier tops.
The war section (of any site) is a shell of its former self. It used to be an outlet where you could play the best players from all over the world without leaving your room. For me this was an invaluable experience that made me the player I am today.

I have played about 300 war games, mostly on yugiohforums. I have moderated the war section there twice and was a gmod. I understand the forum sucks but that is a different argument for another time. I am familiar with warring by any means.

I would agree that online can improve your irl game, and online has definitely made me a lot better. I just don't think things you do online amount to anything. That's cool if I win 5 GPCs or something but I get nothing from those. Maybe our brains work differently but I still think you understand where I am coming from. Online can improve your IRL game, but that is only relevant if you play IRL. You see what I mean? If you don't play IRL you aren't improving at anything tangible. For people like Matt, his time spent online obviously payed off by winning Nationals, but for the people that it never pays off for? Would you not agree that they probably wasted their time online? Killing time aside, DN is only enjoyable to an extent.

[Love. Hate. Cherish.]

bherrell2, on 26 December 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

Going to a locals and losing money is the same amount of time as going to a locals, and making 300 dollars. You don't need to go to big events to break even. The purpose of my argument is you should probably be playing irl and just not just online. I understand online can be amusing to a degree and if you want to stay in your comfort zone, then sure, but you should understand you are missing out on stuff. I am not trying to directly flame the people who strictly play online.

People like Soul are rare examples, and regardless the concept still applies. He has achieved nothing tangible and he is a decent person regardless of rather he plays online yugioh or not. Anyone can be a moderator on DGZ and impress the players there without touching a card IRL, but that isn't something you are really "proud" of. Maybe we have different values, but I would never cry out in joy or anything because I have online friends lol and virtual meaningless credentials.

Two points I'd like to address here.
Firstly, you can make money, but you have to have money to invest to start with. What if you don't? And realistically, you can't be a committed player and make money. You can either play a lot and make a little or vend a lot and play a little. You can't really do both. For instance, I top 8'd Kansas City last month, but I still lost money on the trip. I didn't expect to make money, I play because I enjoy it and the things that come with it. I'm sure I could have also gone and vended all day and made a couple hundred after expenses, but really you're not doing both.

Also I completely disagree with your statement that Soul is a rare example. That's like saying Billy Brake is a rare example in real life. Like no plum.

I'd say that just about everyone who has warred has become a better player because of it.

[Love. Hate. Cherish.]

bherrell2, on 26 December 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

I have played about 300 war games, mostly on yugiohforums. I have moderated the war section there twice and was a gmod. I understand the forum sucks but that is a different argument for another time. I am familiar with warring by any means.

I would agree that online can improve your irl game, and online has definitely made me a lot better. I just don't think things you do online amount to anything. That's cool if I win 5 GPCs or something but I get nothing from those. Maybe our brains work differently but I still think you understand where I am coming from. Online can improve your IRL game, but that is only relevant if you play IRL. You see what I mean? If you don't play IRL you aren't improving at anything tangible. For people like Matt, his time spent online obviously payed off by winning Nationals, but for the people that it never pays off for? Would you not agree that they probably wasted their time online? Killing time aside, DN is only enjoyable to an extent.

Your not really familiar with the history of the war game though as pretty much everyone will agree that warring was defined on Duelistgroundz since all of the warring greats came from there with Kiet being probably the only exception since he came from here. No one came from YF. Warring used to be a lot bigger deal than it is today and I'm pretty sure that's something newer players will never understand fully.

How can you say that they wasted time playing online? Let's list out some of the reasons why one would want to play in real life.

Yugi Fame - Obviously people like Soul and Max have achieved that as well.
Make Friends - I have some really great friends that I made over warring and I hang out with them at every event I go to. Even when we weren't at events we were on AIM chatting.
Make Money - Even you said yourself that you may make a couple hundred bucks, but if you had a job you'd be making more. So if you could be making more money doing something else, but you chose to do what made you less money, wouldn't that mean you were wasting your time since you could be making more?
Because you Enjoy it - They enjoy online too.

Also it's Max, not Matt.

Edited by Love. Hate. Cherish., 26 December 2011 - 01:35 PM.

[Vice]

I play online only for a few reasons. Money being the main one. I do not feel that it is an acceptable cost for a hobby when that money could be used for my boys. The other reason is that unlike all the people here who live in big cities with card shops and locals, I do not have either. I mean seriously, I don't even have a comic book store here anymore.

[✖ Steve ✖]

People who play video games get sponsorship money so they are making money. therefore its not a waste of time. I don't think you get the point of half of this. Your logic is flawed. even apollo and pat agree.

You just have a warped sense of reality because you're younger and don't understand real life.

[Love. Hate. Cherish.]

Also doing something you enjoy isn't wasting your time regardless of its productivity.