5 replies to this topic

[YooGahMans]

My understanding of priority was that the non-turn player could not start a chain, unless it was with a trigger after the turn player passed priority, or at the end of a phase/step in battle phase.

The specific setup:

I play foolish burial and put Grapha into the grave.

My opponent wants to remove Grapha with DD Crow as soon as it resolves.

I want to normal summon a dark world, then bounce it to hand to summon Grapha (a summon that doesn't start a chain.)

I was led to believe that since DD Crow doesn't have a trigger, and I never started a chain or changed phase, that my opponent didn't have the timing to use DD Crow. My opponent insisted he could, and the card shop owner hosting the tournament agreed. Who is right in this situation?

[Vanilla Ice]

He is right. Once Foolish resolves and Grapha is sent to grave, your opponent has a chance to discard a Crow and banish Grapha from grave.

Even if doesn't activate Crow that moment, and you summon a DW monster having in mind to bounce your DW monster and bring back Grapha, your opponent has a chance to discard Crow upon your monster being successfully summoned. After every summon, turn player has the right to retain priority and activate either ignition effect or start a chain by any means, and if the turn doesn't do anything, the opponent is then given a chance to respond and activate cards. In this case:

Player A: summon Broww/Snoww/anything
The monster doesn't have ignition effect, thus player A doesn't retain his priority to use ignition effect.
Player A is then given a chance to activate anything to start a chain.
Player A doesn't activate anything
Player B responses, discarding Crow from hand banishing Grapha.

That should sum it up.

[Nomad]

YooGahMans, on 04 January 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

My understanding of priority was that the non-turn player could not start a chain, unless it was with a trigger after the turn player passed priority, or at the end of a phase/step in battle phase.

The phase or step doesn't matter because the Defending Player can start a chain at any point in time. It's just that since the Turn Player always has priority to do something that can be done at the given time, they need to pass before the Defending Player can start the chain.

It's actually quite simple, but we've gotta understand what can be done at what time. That's the key, so if you give me a few minutes to respond in more depth (aka, to address your example), I'll have more to say than this.

Quote

I play foolish burial and put Grapha into the grave.

My opponent wants to remove Grapha with DD Crow as soon as it resolves.

I want to normal summon a dark world, then bounce it to hand to summon Grapha (a summon that doesn't start a chain.)

I was led to believe that since DD Crow doesn't have a trigger, and I never started a chain or changed phase, that my opponent didn't have the timing to use DD Crow. My opponent insisted he could, and the card shop owner hosting the tournament agreed. Who is right in this situation?

Since the last event to occur is Grapha being sent to the Graveyard, you'll go through the normal steps for responding to an event.

The first thing you do is check for Trigger Effects that're to be activated in response to this, such as that of Vanity's Emptiness (probably not the best example, but it was the first one that came to mind). After all trigger effects have been added to the chain, the player who didn't activate the most recent link will have priority to add to the chain with spell speed 2+ effects.

If there weren't any trigger effects, then the Turn Player will have priority to activate a spell speed 2+ effect in response to Grapha going to the Graveyard. When they pass, the Defending Player will be able to do so, such as by activating D.D. Crow. In other words, the Turn Player always has priority, but only to do things that can be done at that time.

Getting to summons, battle position changes, Ignition Effects, the activation of spell speed 1 cards that don't activate in response to anything (such as normal/ritual/equip/continuous/field cards themselves) or effects that don't tell you when to activate or apply them/don't say they can be used during either players turn, these can normally only be activated when then Turn Player has priority to do absolutely anything. Generally speaking, this is when entering the Main Phase (aka, when Cold Wave needs to be activated), or when simply existing in that Phase when you're not responding to anything.

(note - Players can also activate Ignition Effects of a monster during the Main Phase in response to a summon they've performed if no Trigger Effects are activated at this time, but it's an exception to the general rules, and doesn't apply to anything else. Ignition Effects of monster are special because of this)

In order to normally do one of these things (such as summon your other monster), you'd need to wait until the chain responding to the resolution of Foolish Burial (Grapha going to the Graveyard) has been resolved, and possibly the chain being built in response to that resolution.

One of the ways that helps me think of this is to look at the gameplay like being on flat ground. When you're here & nothing is happening, priority exists for anything that can be done in that phase, regardless or what type. However, when you're already in the chain building process (or when you're responding to something that's just happened), you're faced with a hill or fence, where the options are limited (aka, cutting off chainless actions like summons & spell speed 1 cards/effects that aren't designed to be used then .


Edit - ... haha, I knew I'd be intercepted while typing this. Also to Wakusei, don't forget that Trigger Effects always get first crack when responding to any successful action. It's just that since they're not as common, we often tend to forget about them until they come up.

[YooGahMans]

Thanks for clearing that up, one more question:

Wakusei, on 04 January 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Player A: summon Broww/Snoww/anything
The monster doesn't have ignition effect, thus player A doesn't retain his priority to use ignition effect.
Player A is then given a chance to activate anything to start a chain.
Player A doesn't activate anything
Player B responses, discarding Crow from hand banishing Grapha.

I thought the lack of an ignition effect on the summoned didn't matter, and that I could use priority to activate any monster effect of spell speed 2/3 card on the summon at this point.

[Nomad]

Lets say you & I are having a game, and that you're the Turn Player who's attempting to summon the monster. This is how the priority dance would play out in full.

You'd choose whether or not to negate your own summon, and then since you don't wanna do that (it's very rare that you'd wanna do this, especially with Royal Oppression banned which was a cool play with Lava Golem), I have the option to do so. I don't have anything to negate the summon, so it becomes successful.

The monster now hits the field, so we apply continuous effects & conditions. For example, if the Dark World field spell is up, it'll gain 200 ATK or whatever boost it gives. Next, we enter the chain building process.

We check for Trigger Effects that are to be activated in response to the summon, such as a tributed Sangan or King Tiger Wanghu seeing a small monster being summoned. If there aren't any of these, then you can activate the Ignition Effect of a monster in its place (this is an exception to the normal response rules).

After we've gone through the activation (or possibility of an activation) of those those, we continue (or start the chain if there weren't any) with spell speed 2+ effects. At no time during this response chain can other spell speed 1 cards/effects be activated unless they say so on them (aka to break the normal rules) because they can only be used during open windows (such as simply being in a main phase or entering the main phase)

[Vanilla Ice]

Nomad, on 04 January 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Edit - ... haha, I knew I'd be intercepted while typing this. Also to Wakusei, don't forget that Trigger Effects always get first crack when responding to any successful action. It's just that since they're not as common, we often tend to forget about them until they come up.

Of course you'd get intercepted. You typed some goddamn long lines of letters. And, yeah, forget about the Trigger Effects case. My bad.

And to YooGahMans, since DW monster doesn't have ignition effect, then, yes, being a turn player, player A retains the priority to activate any card that can start a chain link. And after doing so, player B is then given a chance to make a response to your play.